Records that have been touched by Pino Palladino's fingers include D'Angelo's Voodoo, Gary Numan's I, Assassin, Erykah Badu's Mama's Gun, and Phil Collins's ...But Seriously. Yes, that's Pino's fretless bass underpinning "Lady in Red". Blake Mills has an incredible back catalogue of forward-thinking solo releases and session work, and has produced records for people like Fiona Apple, Perfume Genius, and John Legend. In 2021 they came together for Notes with Attachments - a brilliant musical dialogue with input from ace collaborators like Sam Gendel and Chris Dave. They're back with a lovely new one wryly titled That Wasn’t a Dream. On a sunny September day, the guys logged on to Zoom for chat with TP's Andrew Schirmer...

Test Pressing: I have to say, I love the records. There's such an intimate vibe. It’s a kind of space. Was that something intentionally that you wanted to create?

Blake Mills: When you say that, is that from the quality of the recording, that the sound of the record has a space, or do you find that the music itself is sort of painting a world for you? How would you differentiate?

TP: It’s kind of both of that. Because visually, too, when you watch videos of the group performing, it feels so connected and grounded, really. Is there something that you're putting into practice with these records differently than your other work?

Pino Palladino: I know exactly what you mean about it being in its own world sort of sonically and in terms of the music and where it takes you. And for me, I love that it has that effect.

BM: The conveying a sense of the environment that we're making these records in is just generally an important part of capturing audio to me. And not specifically for this record, but just in general, that you're depicting as much of that as you’re able to. But our first record, Notes With Attachments, a lot of the ingredients of that record were from recording sessions that Pino had done over the years elsewhere, some of which were, I think, in a home studio in his apartment in London and in various places. Even though it was pre-pandemic while we were working on it, it was kind of a pandemic-style record-making process where you're taking things that were recorded elsewhere, often various places, and combining them in the box.

Our most recent record is quite the opposite. A lot of it was a live performance between Pino and myself, and then we would overdub on top of our performance and layer it that way. But it was all done in a proper studio. And so that might be coming across more as for the writing, as for the music itself, maybe doing its own heavy lifting for world building.

TP: One of your tracks on the first album was called "Djurkel"—after the West African string instrument. But there really isn't a djurkel on that track, is there? It's just a capo on your bass that gets somewhere to that sound…both you and Blake seem to have this thing about getting your instruments to sound like other things.

PP: Yeah, I mean, I love the sound of a bass guitar. I love the sound of a Fender bass guitar in the right setting with along with other instruments. And that's mostly what inspired me to pick that instrument—hearing the great players back in the day playing with that great Fender sound, it's a great supportive sound. But my tastes are really varied musically. And for me, I'm very excited about just trying to use the instruments that I play to get where I want in terms of sonics and composition. It enables me to write stuff from a different place altogether. “Djurkel” is a perfect example of it. I'm really intrigued and obsessed by some of the sounds of West African instruments. And I was really trying to create that. So I had this old, old Magnatone bass with a damper on the bridge that you can kind of dial in. And I accidentally found this sort of sound that sounded a little bit sort of like a kora or a djurkel or an ngoni. I think both me and Blake really enjoy that process of making our instruments sound like we're not playing that particular instrument. Yeah.

TP: And your collaborators also seem to share this. I mean, Sam [Gendel] is using electronic signal processing on his sax, right? And it's got that kind of John Hassell ghostly texture to it.

PP: There are places where we all cross over, Andrew, sometimes even when we're playing live, like we've been rehearsing the last day or two, there are times where I don't even know what sound I'm making. Sometimes I look at Sam and then I look at Blake, and I'm like, is that me doing that? Yeah, it's amazing.

BM: There is something inherent about wanting to say something else with the same language, or the same instrument. I might be in love with the sound of the kora, but I don't have the 10,000 hours required to learn how to play it and get it to sound like that. So I'm gonna do whatever I can on a guitar to get as close as I can to what I like so much about that sound.

TP: It's interesting to me that both of you have kind of done your thing in the pop world, but come together on some things that really couldn't be more different from that. Of course, not to say that those worlds are completely siloed or distinct. Are there things that you do in your pop work that informs records like these?

PP: I think so. I think our approach sometimes does sort of mirror pop production in that we get inside some of the hooks and arrange the songs and compositions in a way to try and make them appealing to listen to. So the intention in different parts of the compositions is clear, which is a kind of pop sensibility in some ways, I think. We don't improvise a lot of the stuff, it's quite considered and worked on and sculpted so that our intentions come through really strong in the same way you would work on a hook on a pop record to make sure that it really does deliver.

BM: I think there is a correlation between those two things. We put records out alongside a lot of music that is improvisatory and performance-based. And I guess our process has more in common with the types of refinement that you would see on a pop session or a pop track, at least the ones that we've been involved in, there is a lot of consideration for economy—you know, what is the most distilled version of this idea? What is excess? And what can we strip back so that it's the clearest picture?

TP: Pino—your sound has spanned some very different genres. The fretless bass in the 80s pop world is kind of this iconic sound that you had a big role in creating. But then you also did your thing in the 90s with the Soulquarians on records like Voodoo, Mama's Gun, Electric Circus…

PP: I was playing fretless, and I became very well known for playing fretless, but there were also other great players. In the 80s, it was kind of that sound was it felt like it was about to break through. Obviously, a lot of us British bass players were heavily influenced by hearing Jaco [Pastorius]…

TP: …Talk Talk is an important band for us at TP and there's an early cut by them called “Tomorrow Started", where Paul Webb's fretless bass emerges from the shadows in such a brilliantly melodic way…

PP: I always have to give a huge nod and thanks to Jaco for opening the door to all us fretless players who tried desperately to follow him since. But for me, it was a sonic thing when I went down a different route in terms of the sound of that bass, just trying to step away from what Jaco had done on that sort of bridge pickup sound that he had.

TP: My background is in classical music, and I remember in school someone playing me Paul Young's “Wherever I Lay My Hat,” and hearing you sort of sneak in the bassoon solo from Stravinsky's Rite of Spring just kind of blew our minds…

PP: I had no idea about that when I played it, funny enough. I only found out later from discovering Rite of Spring and going, Oh, my God, there it is.

TP: Blake, you grew up in Malibu. I recall reading somewhere that you sort of got into music through the classic Seattle grunge bands…

BM: I don't know how much of a choice I had, because it was the only thing on MTV at the time, you know, that and probably Oasis. But yes, I remember that my intention in getting an electric guitar was to learn “Come As You Are,” “Smells Like Teen Spirit”, ‘Enter Sandman,” “Black Hole Sun”…

TP: “Man in the Box”…

BM: …and they were so iconic, the images of Kurt and Metallica and stuff. And I've gone through the whole process of growing out of that and feeling, you know, almost ashamed, like—oh, you know, I'm into real serious music now. And then, luckily, being able to see the immaturity of that and look back on some of that music with some distance and really appreciate it. And how beautiful and ingenious some of that stuff was. I heard the Alice in Chains Unplugged concert not too long ago, and just thought like, gosh, this is really incredible playing and writing…

TP: So then you start solo in 2010 with Break Mirrors, which I think is a really interesting record. I love the drum sound on “Hiroshima.” You're doing really interesting things with your production that early in the game.

BM: I think that record was really an experience for me to get to exercise things that I took an interest in when I was in a band, and we were making a record. And I was really fascinated with the recording process. And I wanted to get involved in drum sounds and production techniques and engineering and arranging for a band. And I think in a situation where the band is supposed to be more democratic, that can be pretty frustrating for the other people in the band. It just kind of existed as a physical thing that would circulate around our friend group. And also just me making something that I could use as an example or a sort of a calling card to try to generate some work or an opportunity to work with somebody…

TP: Well, it did its thing because few years later you put out Heigh Ho and you're working with Don Was…

BM: Oh, yeah, well, a lot of that record was a chance to call in a favor. Not that I was owed one from anybody, but through my session playing—in the time between making my first record and my second—I got to meet so many of these incredible producers and other musicians. So it was kind of a framework for that album was to work with some of my, my favorite players at the time and producers. And the album was a real group effort because of that.

TP: Something I find really interesting in your songwriting, Blake, is the pacing. You'll have an idea going and then you'll take it in a completely different direction..

BM: Yeah, I think we've got an eye on our own version of an arc, and, and building something and having it arrive somewhere different than it was when it started. I guess we just sort of feel like we're looking for opportunities to discover those left turns in our own music.

TP: Pino Plays on your album Mutable Set —is that what brought you guys together? Or had you worked together previously?

BM: No - I was producing a John Legend record and just from the get-go had in mind Pino and Chris Dave as the rhythm section.

PP: I mean, we had so much in common musically. Even when we weren't working, we were kind of hanging and jamming and playing sort of small gigs in Los Angeles and just trying to build this thing up. You know, it's been a process, absolutely.

BM: Talk Talk was, was, was definitely in my playlist during that time, making that record. And, Pino, I think we were talking about Mark Hollis a little bit around that time, before he passed away. It's one of the things that's still incredible to me, first, even though we are coming on a decade here of knowing each other, there are days when we'll be talking about an artist or a record and you'll say, “Oh, yeah, you know, I once played with them or shared a stage…” Your tentacles have been in so many wildly different directions, so it's not a surprise to learn you were on some of these records and, and played with some of these people. I really get a kick out of that.

PP: I didn't play with Mark Hollis, but met him through mutual friends. And I remember when he was recording that record, his solo one. I knew most of the musicians playing on that. And it was a unique experience for all of them. I won't go into what I heard at the time, but but the results were just incredible. It gets lost a little bit that record, but it's brilliant. More people should should check that out.

TP: Pino, you grew up in Cardiff in a Welsh/Italian household. Did you speak Italian at home?

PP: I did, actually. My father was born in Italy and came to Wales. And my mom and him met when she was very young and had me when when she was very young, too. And my mom actually used to speak Italian with with a very strong accent from Campobasso, which is where my father came from. So I heard Italian in the house. My father had a lot of Italian friends who would come over and play cards, briscola, and cook food and stuff. So yeah, I grew up hearing it and went to Italy when I was very young. So I speak it reasonably well.

TP: Did you start with classical training? Or were you just in into bands?

PP: Well, I went to a Catholic school and had an opportunity to learn guitar, Spanish guitar playing, so that I could play in the folk masses. We'd have these folk masses in Cardiff. And so I just learned the basic chords. And that's what got me started on guitar. And then I went on to play in sort of local rock bands and came through playing guitar and eventually around the age of about 16 decided to play bass. It seemed like that was my calling.

There's a lot of different cultures in Cardiff, it’s a big docks community. And through that, I heard a lot of music—a lot of black music, a lot of African music, all sorts of different things mixed in Cardiff: old school R&B, sort of Otis Redding and stuff like that. And a lot of folk music, you know, which which started my love, like Fairport Convention, John Martyn, stuff like that from the Island catalogue.

TP: What did your parents play at home?

PP: My mum loved music, actually. And she loves stuff like Stan Kenton's big band. I remember on one occasion she actually called me in or from upstairs and said, “There's somebody on the TV, you need to come and see him. Apparently, he's one of the best guitarists in the world.”And I came down and it was John McLaughlin. I think he was on the Old Grey Whistle Test or something. So yeah, she certainly knew music.

TP: What was a formative record for you?

PP: Wow, there's so many, I would say Bless the Weather by John Martyn was hugely influential in my sort of musical sensibilities. And then through the Led Zeppelin IV—my favourite Zeppelin album—and then Motown music, you know, “Roadrunner” by Junior Walker. You know, my sister's friends used to have Motown Chartbusters albums, which had a compilation of different Motown artists on them. And it always rocked my world whenever I heard that rhythm section.

TP: Blake, in 2018, you put out an ambient record Look, which has this gorgeous kind of modern classical soundwash thing going on. It's a beautiful record that I think more people should hear. What brought you to ambient music?

BM: First of all, that record was really just literally an exploration of some equipment that I had gotten. I became interested in these synth guitars that Roland made in the 70s. They were brand new to me and the way that it made the most sense to kind of experiment with them was in a studio. And because they have individual outs--in other words, to hook it up at home, you would need like four amps. And I lived in a small, like space apartment at that time. So, I booked a day or two at a studio in town and brought the guitar synths down. Myself and a very talented engineer that we've worked with a lot in the past named Joseph Lorge.

We just started experimenting, really--playing and demoing these guitars, and forgot entirely about all of that until months or a year later we pulled that session up again and listened to a few things we did over those days and thought, like, we could just release this as it as is, or some of these things feel like they're sort of the seeds for further development, other ideas.

And on a few places on the record, or what became the record, we invited people down to collaborate, and see what they heard. And so Weyes Blood is singing on there, and Rob Moose does some string arrangements. It just turned into its own thing. It was not an effort to make an ambient music record. It was just, I think, more than anything, trying to release something without examining it too much, in contrast to making 12 or 13-song records with vocals and lyrics and artwork and all that stuff, and all the thought goes into that. There was something appealing to me about the idea of just like, well, why not? You know, why don't we just put this out as it is and let it be?

TP: So you're taking this record on tour, and I think back to one of your earlier comments today, you mentioned there's something very crafted about the music, that It's not as improvised as we would think. So, how are you translating the songs into a live setting?

PP: Well yeah, it's a learning process for us. We're learning more about these songs as we play them with Sam and Chris, who are both so creative and incredible and sensitive to the sound of our record and the sensibilities of the record. So, nobody's coming in and, you know, trying to put themselves forward—we're all serving the music. And that's just so gratifying to be a part of. With musicians as great as Sam, Chris and Blake, we're really sensitive to, you know, not stepping all over the record, not trying to recreate it perfectly, just trying to find the essence of each song and try and bring that out in a live performance. There is a little bit more room for everybody and some improvisation to go on. And both me and Blake are open to either of the other musicians coming up with an approach to one of the songs or to one of the parts of the song.

BM: There's often, I think, an intention to deliver a part a certain way. You know what you're supposed to play, but then something happens spontaneously and it comes out a little bit different. And that happens at times on the record. But I think it happens a lot when we get together and start playing shows in repetition, too, where from night to night, things just sort of take on a personality of their own. And I guess that is a form of improvisation, you know, that we're going to find out.

[baby cries in the background]

TP: Blake, sounds like you’ve got a little nipper.

BM: Oh, yeah. I've got a five-month-old. It's funny you can hear it because every time I've got a guitar on a Zoom and I try to play something and I've got AirPods in, they just go, “we can't hear it”. So, I guess they've adapted it to the human voice only. But yeah, I've got a five-month-old and it's been great. She's wonderful.

TP: Kids sometimes tend to rebel against their parents and go in the opposite direction, which would be a shame, given your musical proclivities. But that wasn't the case for you, Pino. Your kids are all in involved in music, right? Fabiana's record last year was brilliant. Big fan of that one.

PP: Yeah, it's been really lovely. It doesn't surprise me. You know, my wife also was a musician and a singer when we met. And so there's a double dose of musicianship in all three children. Two of them perform professionally and my daughter, Giancarla, who isn't a professional musician, is ridiculously musical too. It's incredible. All three of them, yeah. So, it's really rewarding to see them making their own way in such a confusing, weird business at the moment. But it's a calling and both of them have that calling, obviously. They didn't rebel…I guess they may have rebelled against…no, no, they couldn’t have. When they were very young, when Fabi was sort of 12 or 13 and my youngest rocker was probably about six or seven, they came and saw a D'Angelo show at Radio City in the first Soultronics tour, which was such an unbelievably theatrical, incredible musical event. So, yeah, it doesn't surprise me that it would have been a huge thing for them to see me playing with all these incredible players.

TP: I wanted to thank you both for your time, it’s been really nice. Was there anything else about the record that you wanted to kind of emphasize?

BM: One thing you touched on was the kind of ambiguity of what's coming from who and where. The one thing that's special about this record and has a big impact on its sound is that Pino is playing a lot of guitar on the record whereas the first record was kind of the opening statement from a bass player. It’s probably the most guitar playing Pino has done publicly, right P?

PP: You know, it's funny—we played a small gig recently in Venice, just as a duo and somebody said to me, “When was the last time you performed on guitar?” Actually, it was when I was like 17 years old. So yeah, t’s been really lovely being able to play another instrument live again.

BM: Yeah. It's so fun for me too. We play differently. We gravitate towards different voicings and stuff.

That Wasn't a Dream is out now on vinyl/CD/digital from Impulse and available everywhere.

The boys are doing a bit of a tour - dates via Blake's site here